Tuesday, September 23, 2008

The Sealed Portion of the Gold Plates

As many of you may already be aware, there is a security guard in Utah who claims to have received revelation that he was supposed to translate the sealed portion of the gold plates and also re-translate the Book of Lehi of lost 116 pages fame. You can view his work here. FAIR posted a review on its wiki about the validity of the work. You can decide for yourself.

To be honest, it is astonishingly long and detailed, and you can definitely tell the guy put a lot of time into it. It's something like 668 pages total but not all of it is scripture. Page 596 in the pdf. includes a letter sent by the translator to the First Presidency. However, he did preface the letter with the following:

By way of commandment I wrote the following letter to the First Presidency of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and had it delivered in late March 2004 along with a copy of The Book of Lehi, certified and registered by way of United States Postal Service.
Does the Lord then command us to use USPS for our mail delivery or would you not FedEx something that important? All kidding aside, the point of the post is not to really to discuss the contents of the translation nor its merits, but to discuss how we as a church:

1) Encourage and require that all members receive personal revelation, whether by grandiose visions or simple inspiration; and,

2) Keep any personal revelation subject to the priesthood lines of authority and its right to obtain revelation for the church as a whole

By cutting off personal revelation, a church would become dead as its members would have to rely on texts that, while somewhat relevant, might not address the problems of that particular time and would not provide for revelation that has been lost (Zenos, Zenock). Priests and early Fathers would interpret the scriptures and theological debates would continue for centuries. Moreover, without priesthood organizational authority, we would encounter splinter groups claiming personal revelation more often, as this brother so easily demonstrated. Polygamous groups are an easy example as well but how many times have we heard about a seminary teacher who broke off and was treating a barn in Manti like a temple or some other strange story?

We as LDS and Christians are not limited to this conundrum. Islam is divided into two major groups (Sunni and Shi'a), with each group having multiple varieties internally. A Sunni can be a Wahhabi Sunni in Saudi Arabia, which is generally more conservative or a Dervish in Turkey could be a Sunni, but have a different understanding of Islam as a mystic. I will talk more about this in a future post.

How have we been successful in overcoming this apparent contradiction while others have not been as successful? (Bonus points for mentioning Hiram Page. Any one that can work a seer stone into an argument on a blog called The Seer Stone certainly deserves extra credit)

Prop 8 Note: I guess the Brother of Jared knew that the California Supreme Court would rule that same sex marriage discrimination was going to be a major issue for our day. According to our good friend the translator of the Sealed Portion, the Book of Mormon condones same sex marriage. Check out this press release. Apparently two of Jesus' apostles were openly gay. So the Pharisees relied on criticising Jesus on the shaky doctrinal ground of healing on the Sabbath instead but ignored the basics of Mosaic law?

74 comments:

Doug Towers said...

Yes, well, need we say more in regard the translation?

But this is a problem area where some feel suppressed and controlled in regard their religious opinions and freedom of speech. Yet on the other hand how much freedom and tolerance is too much?

Fear is often overbearing in regard things such as the seer stone you mention - don't think anything yourself or you may get confused.

It seems to me that at the spiritual end 2 types exist in the church. Those who keep the basics very well but are too afraid to step beyond a certain point and get really serious about learning theology. And secondly those who do both. The latter being those who will gain eternal life. The former being those in the next degree down in the Celestial Kingdom.

I feel your article demonstrates that (as always) the further a thing can take you upward the further it can, conversely, take you downward if not practiced by the guidance of the Spirit.

Hans said...

You are right Doug that the farther you go down your path of knowledge and spiritual experiences, the more dramatic the fall. At that point we can't excuse ourselves from ignorance.

I think that the underlying principle here is ultimately the ability to control religion by a hierarchy. For centuries the Catholic/Orthodox churches had a monopoly on religious texts that the common folk could not touch. If not, then why the rough treatment of Wycliffe and Severus and other translators of the Bible?

I think that we are unique in a way that we are very strict in our priesthood/revelatory structure, even to the point that very little can be considered authoritative from GA's (as opposed to their opinions) and the encouragement of the personal/mystical experience. We should be striving to have experiences like that of Moses, Enoch, and the Brother of Jared. How have we been so succesful and maintaining the status quo and yet having the eternities opened to us personally?

Doug Towers said...

I think the answer to your last question lies in the fact that those receiving such manifestations have done so by virtue of having the Holy Ghost.

The Holy Ghost isn't into opposing the church. So those having the Holy Ghost remain true to where Heavenly Father is going with the church. Even Jesus Christ showed respect to the Cheif High Priest in the council. He answered nothing until commanded to by the President of the Aaronic Priesthood.

So regardless of whether we feel this leader or that leader is right or wrong, we support the institution and his authority within his right of office.

BHodges said...

Nemelka has been known to be a little abrasive in response to criticism you daredevil, you!

Hans said...

I am sure that he would consider my comments demeaning, much like he claimed that the church demeaned him in his press statement without giving specific examples. While I did poke fun at him slightly, I still tried to give him the benefit of the doubt. We can all decide whether to believe him or not.

I'd be interested to see how he reacts to the post.

Heber said...

Free agency guarantees to all the right to say and believe what they want to. However, in this case I feel that the alleged translator of the sealed portion simply does not understand The Book of Mormon (where the sealed portion is mentioned).

Ether 3:9-4:7

9 And the Lord said unto him: Because of thy faith thou hast seen that I shall take upon me flesh and blood; and never has man come before me with such exceeding faith as thou hast; for were it not so ye could not have seen my finger. Sawest thou more than this?
10 And he answered: Nay; Lord, ashow thyself unto me.
11 And the Lord said unto him: Believest thou the words which I shall speak?
12 And he answered: Yea, Lord, I know that thou speakest the truth, for thou art a God of truth, and canst not lie.
13 And when he had said these words, behold, the Lord showed himself unto him, and said: Because thou knowest these things ye are redeemed from the fall; therefore ye are brought back into my presence; therefore I show myself unto you.
14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.
15 And never have I showed myself unto man whom I have created, for never has man believed in me as thou hast. Seest thou that ye are created after mine own image? Yea, even all men were created in the beginning after mine own image.
16 Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh.
17 And now, as I, Moroni, said I could not make a full account of these things which are written, therefore it sufficeth me to say that Jesus showed himself unto this man in the spirit, even after the manner and in the likeness of the same body even as he showed himself unto the Nephites.
18 And he ministered unto him even as he ministered unto the Nephites; and all this, that this man might know that he was God, because of the many great works which the Lord had showed unto him.
19 And because of the knowledge of this man he could not be kept from beholding within the veil; and he saw the finger of Jesus, which, when he saw, he fell with fear; for he knew that it was the finger of the Lord; and he had faith no longer, for he knew, nothing doubting.
20 Wherefore, having this perfect knowledge of God, he could not be kept from within the veil; therefore he saw Jesus; and he did minister unto him.
21 And it came to pass that the Lord said unto the brother of Jared: Behold, thou shalt not suffer these things which ye have seen and heard to go forth unto the world, until the atime cometh that I shall glorify my name in the flesh; wherefore, ye shall treasure up the things which ye have seen and heard, and show it to no man.
22 And behold, when ye shall come unto me, ye shall write them and shall seal them up, that no one can interpret them; for ye shall write them in a language that they cannot be read.
23 And behold, these two stones will I give unto thee, and ye shall seal them up also with the things which ye shall write.
24 For behold, the language which ye shall write I have confounded; wherefore I will cause in my own due time that these stones shall magnify to the eyes of men these things which ye shall write.
25 And when the Lord had said these words, he showed unto the brother of Jared all the inhabitants of the earth which had been, and also all that would be; and he withheld them not from his sight, even unto the ends of the earth.
26 For he had said unto him in times before, that if he would bbelieve in him that he could show unto him call things—it should be shown unto him; therefore the Lord could not withhold anything from him, for he knew that the Lord could show him all things.
27 And the Lord said unto him: Write these things and seal them up; and I will show them in mine own due time unto the children of men.
28 And it came to pass that the Lord commanded him that he should seal up the two stones which he had received, and show them not, until the Lord should show them unto the children of men.
1 And the Lord commanded the brother of Jared to go down out of the amount from the presence of the Lord, and write the things which he had seen; and they were forbidden to come unto the children of men until after that he should be lifted up upon the cross; and for this cause did king Mosiah keep them, that they should not come unto the world until after Christ should show himself unto his people.
2 And after Christ truly had showed himself unto his people he commanded that they should be made manifest.
3 And now, after that, they have all dwindled in unbelief; and there is none save it be the Lamanites, and they have rejected the gospel of Christ; therefore I am commanded that I should hide them up again in the earth.
4 Behold, I have written upon these plates the avery things which the brother of Jared saw; and there never were bgreater things made manifest than those which were made manifest unto the brother of Jared.
5 Wherefore the Lord hath commanded me to write them; and I have written them. And he commanded me that I should aseal them up; and he also hath commanded that I should seal up the interpretation thereof; wherefore I have sealed up the interpreters, according to the commandment of the Lord.
6 For the Lord said unto me: They shall not go forth unto the Gentiles until the day that they shall repent of their iniquity, and become clean before the Lord.
7 And in that day that they shall exercise faith in me, saith the Lord, even as the brother of Jared did, that they may become sanctified in me, then will I manifest unto them the things which the brother of Jared saw, even to the unfolding unto them all my revelations, saith Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of the heavens and of the earth, and all things that in them are.

2 Ne 27:6-7
6 And it shall come to pass that the Lord God shall bring forth unto you the words of a book, and they shall be the words of them which have slumbered.
7 And behold the book shall be sealed; and in the book shall be a revelation from God, from the beginning of the world to the ending thereof.

Mosiah 8:19
19 And now, when Ammon had made an end of speaking these words the king rejoiced exceedingly, and gave thanks to God, saying: Doubtless a great mystery is contained within these plates, and these interpreters were doubtless prepared for the purpose of unfolding all such mysteries to the children of men.

According to The Book of Mormon, the sealed portion was written by The Brother of Jared, contains a vision of all people who have ever lived and will only come forth when we exercise faith even as The Brother of Jared which is an incredible amount of faith.

Before one decides to recieve revelation which superceedes the priesthood line of authority I think one should study the scriptures and make sure that one's life is in accordance with the teachings of The Church. Otherwise the revelation will contradict The Holy Scriptures.

Anonymous said...

Free agency guarantees to all the right to say and believe what they want to. However, in this case I feel that the alleged translator of the sealed portion simply does not understand The Book of Mormon (where the sealed portion is mentioned).

Ether 3:9-4:7

9 And the Lord said unto him: Because of thy faith thou hast seen that I shall take upon me flesh and blood; and never has man come before me with such exceeding faith as thou hast; for were it not so ye could not have seen my finger. Sawest thou more than this?
10 And he answered: Nay; Lord, show thyself unto me.
11 And the Lord said unto him: Believest thou the words which I shall speak?
12 And he answered: Yea, Lord, I know that thou speakest the truth, for thou art a God of truth, and canst not lie.
13 And when he had said these words, behold, the Lord showed himself unto him, and said: Because thou knowest these things ye are redeemed from the fall; therefore ye are brought back into my presence; therefore I show myself unto you.
14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.
15 And never have I showed myself unto man whom I have created, for never has man believed in me as thou hast. Seest thou that ye are created after mine own image? Yea, even all men were created in the beginning after mine own image.
16 Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh.
17 And now, as I, Moroni, said I could not make a full account of these things which are written, therefore it sufficeth me to say that Jesus showed himself unto this man in the spirit, even after the manner and in the likeness of the same body even as he showed himself unto the Nephites.
18 And he ministered unto him even as he ministered unto the Nephites; and all this, that this man might know that he was God, because of the many great works which the Lord had showed unto him.
19 And because of the knowledge of this man he could not be kept from beholding within the veil; and he saw the finger of Jesus, which, when he saw, he fell with fear; for he knew that it was the finger of the Lord; and he had faith no longer, for he knew, nothing doubting.
20 Wherefore, having this perfect knowledge of God, he could not be kept from within the veil; therefore he saw Jesus; and he did minister unto him.
21 And it came to pass that the Lord said unto the brother of Jared: Behold, thou shalt not suffer these things which ye have seen and heard to go forth unto the world, until the time cometh that I shall glorify my name in the flesh; wherefore, ye shall treasure up the things which ye have seen and heard, and show it to no man.
22 And behold, when ye shall come unto me, ye shall write them and shall seal them up, that no one can interpret them; for ye shall write them in a language that they cannot be read.
23 And behold, these two stones will I give unto thee, and ye shall seal them up also with the things which ye shall write.
24 For behold, the language which ye shall write I have confounded; wherefore I will cause in my own due time that these stones shall magnify to the eyes of men these things which ye shall write.
25 And when the Lord had said these words, he showed unto the brother of Jared all the inhabitants of the earth which had been, and also all that would be; and he withheld them not from his sight, even unto the ends of the earth.
26 For he had said unto him in times before, that if he would believe in him that he could show unto him call things—it should be shown unto him; therefore the Lord could not withhold anything from him, for he knew that the Lord could show him all things.
27 And the Lord said unto him: Write these things and seal them up; and I will show them in mine own due time unto the children of men.
28 And it came to pass that the Lord commanded him that he should seal up the two stones which he had received, and show them not, until the Lord should show them unto the children of men.
1 And the Lord commanded the brother of Jared to go down out of the amount from the presence of the Lord, and write the things which he had seen; and they were forbidden to come unto the children of men until after that he should be lifted up upon the cross; and for this cause did king Mosiah keep them, that they should not come unto the world until after Christ should show himself unto his people.
2 And after Christ truly had showed himself unto his people he commanded that they should be made manifest.
3 And now, after that, they have all dwindled in unbelief; and there is none save it be the Lamanites, and they have rejected the gospel of Christ; therefore I am commanded that I should hide them up again in the earth.
4 Behold, I have written upon these plates the very things which the brother of Jared saw; and there never were greater things made manifest than those which were made manifest unto the brother of Jared.
5 Wherefore the Lord hath commanded me to write them; and I have written them. And he commanded me that I should seal them up; and he also hath commanded that I should seal up the interpretation thereof; wherefore I have sealed up the interpreters, according to the commandment of the Lord.
6 For the Lord said unto me: They shall not go forth unto the Gentiles until the day that they shall repent of their iniquity, and become clean before the Lord.
7 And in that day that they shall exercise faith in me, saith the Lord, even as the brother of Jared did, that they may become sanctified in me, then will I manifest unto them the things which the brother of Jared saw, even to the unfolding unto them all my revelations, saith Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of the heavens and of the earth, and all things that in them are.

2 Ne 27:6-7
6 And it shall come to pass that the Lord God shall bring forth unto you the words of a book, and they shall be the words of them which have slumbered.
7 And behold the book shall be sealed; and in the book shall be a revelation from God, from the beginning of the world to the ending thereof.

Mosiah 8:19
19 And now, when Ammon had made an end of speaking these words the king rejoiced exceedingly, and gave thanks to God, saying: Doubtless a great mystery is contained within these plates, and these interpreters were doubtless prepared for the purpose of unfolding all such mysteries to the children of men.

According to The Book of Mormon, the sealed portion was written by The Brother of Jared, contains a vision of all people who have ever lived and will only come forth when we exercise faith even as The Brother of Jared which is an incredible amount of faith.

Before one decides to receive revelation which supersedes the priesthood line of authority I think one should study the scriptures and make sure that one's life is in accordance with the teachings of The Church. Otherwise, revelation received could contradict The Holy Scriptures.

Jewels said...

With all the pontificating, judgments, criticisms aside---has any ONE of you yet read it all the way through to the end (without skipping around) the same way Moroni told you to read the first third: "...with a sincere heart, with real intent having faith in Christ..."???

BHodges said...

Nope. If I want to hear the temple ceremony I prefer to do so in the temple. Not in some false prophet's ripoff version. ;) Knowing the development of the ceremony has proved instructive at seeing through Namelka's claim. Why is he quoting Wilford Woodruff in the "sealed portion"?

Hans said...

Ditto for me. While I have read extended selections, too many things contradict the teachings of the brethren. Going against the brethren goes against the logic of the truthfulness of the book. If the BoM is true, then JS and his successors are prophets. The same logic goes the other way, if they are true prophets, then additional revelation would come through them.

For the same reason I have not prayed whether the Qur'an or the Bhavata Gita, though I have read extended selections, because logically if the church is true, then no other variation would be true.

That being said, Namelka's "proclamation" was more an object lesson for my original post rather than a chance to bash him. I wanted to focus about the dynamics of personal revelation that is controlled by a central authority.

Jewels said...

That's exactly what I thought!

None of you have or you're reading the wrong one... because W.Woodruff's name is not mentioned anywhere in there.

www.thesealedportion.com

Isn't that what all of you former missionaries begged of your investigators---"just read the book"!!

I hope you don't think any of you would have read the Book of Mormon had you lived during Joseph's lifetime.

At least there was a precedent set by Joseph that would make the possibility of "gold plates, U & T, translation, young, uneducated etc.," even more plausible this go around.

As for Christopher being "abrasive"...you're right there! So was Christ...why do you think they killed him!

Hans, you should have received your answer to your post by now...why don't you post it on here for all to see???

Heber, do you think Joseph understood the Bible before he translated the B of M?

What do you think the purpose of the B of M was? And if the B of M is so clear why are there at least two different religions from it?

As for the one who made the comment that we need to follow the "church" is that the one from which springs: "do not masturbate, one earring in each ear, no gays allowed--just adulterers, etc., etc," commandments?

There are none so blind and deaf as those who refuse to see and hear.

If YOU don't have The Sealed Portion of the gold plates then read Ether 4:15 and you'll understand why you don't.

Did I mention TSP (and the other works by Nemelka) are all FREE to read at his website?

He does not practice "priestcrafts" by selling his testimony with info he claims came FREEly from God (like some people I know ;-).

BTW, that's straight from the B of Mormon (very few, if any, of you seem to understand).

BHodges said...

I'm not interested in reading the entire thing. Namelka called himself a fraud. This was in the City Weekly magazine. He has attempted to sue the LDS Church for "defamation." He has claimed that apostles of the Lord are homosexual.

As for quoting Woodruff, my point is that the sealed portion so-called (it's a fraud) quotes the LDS temple ceremony. This is a clear anachronism.

Jewels said...

Yep, you're right!!

After Peter ate, slept, walked and talked with Christ for 3 years---he then denied him.

So I guess Christ is a fraud

If the temple endowment is sooo important to you...does it not concern you that the men (those since JS) you sustain have edited and butchered out the most significant parts?

How do you think you'll ever hear the truth about the original endowment JS gave FREEly to all, without ANY restrictions, or requiring 10% of your gross income--- Unless it comes through someone other than them?

If God is "sending revelations" as some of you claim....then let's employ some common sense by using what the endowment presents and teaches you (or should anyway):

"Jehovah send Peter, James and John down to the man Adam and see what's going on there...and then return and report"

Ergo he ain't here!!

Or do you believe in a God that is micromanaging with inequality--a "respecter of persons" (contrary to scripture)--- blessing some with revelations, prosperity, healings and 3 squares, while others he allows to be homeless, hungry, war torn and bereft?

When they are learned they think they are wise...

BHodges said...

After Peter ate, slept, walked and talked with Christ for 3 years---he then denied him.

So I guess Christ is a fraud


To the contrary, when in a sticky situation Peter pretended not to know Christ. He never said anything like Nemelka said. He never said he fooled people, that he made it all up about Christ's miracles, etc. He simply pretended not to know Christ. It could be argued that he did so in order to stay nearby.

If the temple endowment is sooo important to you...does it not concern you that the men (those since JS) you sustain have edited and butchered out the most significant parts?

It seems you are unfamiliar with the history of the temple endowment. The full presentation under JS could last as long as 9 hours. Thus, Nemelka's version which he lifted is not the original endowment anyway. Further, the older versions are not reflected in Nemelka's. He borrows from an early Utah ceremony. Again, he is quoting the ceremony as directed by President Woodruff. This in a work said to be ancient.

How do you think you'll ever hear the truth about the original endowment JS gave FREEly to all, without ANY restrictions, or requiring 10% of your gross income--- Unless it comes through someone other than them?

Again, the "sealed portion" contains a version of the ceremony that was not so ordered until years after JS's passing. Further, JS certainly did not give it willy nilly to everyone without "ANY" restrictions. Such a notion is absurd. He carefully selected those who he trusted.


Or do you believe in a God that is micromanaging with inequality--a "respecter of persons" (contrary to scripture)--- blessing some with revelations, prosperity, healings and 3 squares, while others he allows to be homeless, hungry, war torn and bereft?

I personally haven't worked out precisely how involved God is with our individual lives. I believe he is involved, but to what extent I am not certain.


When they are learned they think they are wise...

The unlearned who wrongly think they are wise trouble me just as much.

BHodges said...

By the way, when did Peter try to sue the Church? or the Christ? When did Christ say to take people to court?

Jewels said...

You are making assertions about what is in "The Sealed Portion" (and "Sacred Not Secret" also FREE to read) that simply are not correct...but there again you haven't read them... so how could we expect you to be accurate.

Christopher is guided by men with voice boxes (he doesn't trust what his own "spirit" or "revelation" might tell him that (surely you can see where that gets us) you know as John the Beloved, who "unfolded" what is in "666 The Mark of America, Seat of the Beast..." (FREE to read) and the three Nephites (same as JS).

Christopher was under a mandate by them to clear his name from the lies, allegations, disparagement and gossip by men (u sustain with a pledge of allegiance by an arm raised to the square) though they have never met, interviewed him and never read TSP (like you :-)hence court.

Honestly, Bro(s), if you'd bother to read anything other than what his enemies say, like court documents and transcripts, or Ida Smith's (greatgrand niece of H.Smith) story (all on website) or hear the taped phone conversation between her and Holland (things which he subsequently denied having said) you'd have a clearer understanding of why court was necessary.

But I will tell you this because I was present in the courtroom for the hearing of that suit: the magistrate said to Christopher "Yes, well you can't prove you translated that record so..."

Then Christopher interrupted him and said, "Yes I can! I can PROVE that I translated the sealed portion".

We all held our breath...

Now my good brothers...living here in Mormon (controlled) country...

Do you think that judge gave him a chance to "prove" it???

BTW, you might refresh yourself on the talk Holland gave in April '07, shortly before his recorded phone conversation with Ms. Smith, entitled "Tongue of Angels"

How does that scripture go "..they do honor me with their lips..."

Jewels said...

PS

BHodges: "I personally haven't worked out precisely how involved God is with our individual lives. I believe he is involved, but to what extent I am not certain."

Jewels: You could be "certain" if you'd read TSP!

:-) :-) :-)

Hans said...

BHodges already made my points for me. But please clarify what answer I am supposed to have received for my post as I don't follow up there.

One other thought:

"Or do you believe in a God that is micromanaging with inequality--a "respecter of persons" (contrary to scripture)--- blessing some with revelations, prosperity, healings and 3 squares, while others he allows to be homeless, hungry, war torn and bereft?"

That's exactly how he was in the OT, NT, and BoM. He is no respector of persons if they follow the Gospel. I suppose the Canaanites might disagree.

One other thing. As missionaries we asked investigators to pray about the BoM but I don't know a missionary that would expect the investigator to pray after having read the whole book. We shared special selections and asked them to pray while they continue reading the whole thing. Symantics, but Namelka seriously undercut his credibility. The Lord has also said that his house is a house of order. If every random member claimed revelation for the entire body of the church, the church would be more fragmented than classical christianity. The authority to lead despite personal member revelation was an issue early in the church's history. This was resolved in D&C 28.

BHodges said...

Yes, I am rather familiar with the court case, the recorded phone calls, Nemelka's taking advantage of a certain woman whom Elder Holland trusted, etc. I personally have no problem with what Elder Holland said. I largely agree with him. Further, the case was not decided in favor of Nemelka's claims.

The sealed portion is not true. Nemelka is not a prophet. You are free to have your own opinion, and will do so. I have read much but not all of the so-called sealed portion and do not believe Nemelka's claims. He is a self-professed con man.

BHodges said...

BTW, Jewels, go check out Hiram Page.

Hans said...

Sorry, I see that my previous post came through at the same time as others and inadvertently skipped over two or three, so I apologize if I didn't catch that.

I haven't personally read any court documents but only what Namelka published and selections of TSP. As explained previously, I have felt no need to investigate its truthfulness further because of my own conviction of current church leadership and priesthood succession. Namelka is one of many who have made similar claims to JS's legacy and I personally have a testimony of current church leadership.

I do appreciate your convictions and stopping by because it helps people to see both sides of an issue.

Lastly, I live in Phoenix which is hardly Mormon controlled country. While there are many LDS in Mesa, my area is quite average. I would hardly say that our courts here are controlled by Mormons.

Jewels said...

HEY, I KNOW, for those of you confident in your beliefs and leaders, why don't you (any and all of you) AND/OR your leaders, including those you believe have a direct conduit to God (all 14), accept a challenge to debate the man Christopher in a public venue?

And like the story of Elijah-- pile that wood high!

We could have it in the Conference Center or rather the Delta Center then any who wish could participate, without cost and without standing in line or competing for tickets. ;-)

Then all can witness for themselves who is truly "called and chosen" and who is not. (anyone have any ins to your P,S,R's?)

It shouldn't take long, according to you all, for the "deceived devil or false prophet" to be exposed for who he is---should it?

Wouldn't that be the fairest way to let people decide for themselves -- when they have a visible choice before them?

They can ask any questions, set any trap or snare they wish to try and trip him up? (pour water on the wood)

BTW, You won't need to supply Christopher with the questions ahead of time.

But you might need to supply your P, S, R's ahead of time, which would be fine (soak that wood well).

What say any of you?

As to your question Hans about the OT, NT, and BoM...and that God loves conditionally.. Hmmm

I find it curious that you believe the Bible to be the "word of God only in so far as it was translated correctly"...but then y'all go to great lengths to defend every story as literal and true!

Why and whom would it serve and benefit to teach you that God is cruel, punishing, a killer, a warmonger, and loves conditionally etc? (did you miss The Prodigal Son?)

Which of your children did you create to punish, suffer, kill, destroy their pets, and condemn to hell forever?

Who has taught you these "precepts of men to fear God"?

Did not Christ teach us to do unto others as we would have them do unto us? And to never take offense even if they hang you on a cross (and you don't deserve it) cuz they don't know what their doin'?

Does God violate His own commandments--have double standards--do what I say not as I do??

Your God ain't my Father, but it might be the one you worship.

If the lady you claim was "taken advantage of by Christopher" was in your presence she would slap you upside the head. She is a spit fire that no one could ever take advantage of. She's never been married because she never needed a man to lead her, tell her what she could or couldn't do, read or couldn't read, or what and who she could question or debate.

(Obviously women don't have brains to think for themselves! Did you learn that from God??? Couldn't be since He's "no respecter of persons", and J.Smith never withheld the priesthood from women or blacks. It should be no small matter to you that most of the followers of Christ were WOMEN!!)

By the choice she has made to accept the veracity of The Sealed Portion she has lost all her friends and family (as have I--my story is also on the website under Julie).

Do you really think we would make a choice so cavalierly with such severe consequences, before tasting the incredible fruits that we now enjoy and have sacrificed much to attain?

I may have violated the gospel by coming on to a Mormon website and posting about The Sealed Portion (thus this will be my last)...but you have violated the gospel of Jesus Christ by mocking, ridiculing, disparaging and making FALSE accusations about a book you have never read and a man you have never met.

How perfectly you follow in the footsteps of those who lead and example for you.

(Read D & C 84 start at vs. 77 to learn how TRUE prophets conduct their lives and compare it to your p, s. r's.)

BUT, just in case there is one humble truth seeker that will come among you, I wish to leave my witness that The Sealed Portion of the Book of Mormon--The Final Testament of Jesus Christ is not only the most astonishing book I have ever read, but it is indeed exactly what it purports to be in Ether 4, Isaiah 29 (JST), and 2 Nephi 26-27--the "greater manifestations", "the further light and knowledge God promised to send".

I know you're wondering how I have the audacity to say that none of you have ever read the book (despite your claims)...well here's how I can make that claim...

Because NO ONE can read it with an open heart and mind and NOT KNOW of its veracity.

Remember my friends it can be read FREE from the internet(housetops).

But if you choose not to, then feel free to continue to buy your oil from "those that sell". (Parable of the 10 Virgins)

Julie L. Taggart

BHodges said...

HEY, I KNOW, for those of you confident in your beliefs and leaders, why don't you (any and all of you) AND/OR your leaders, including those you believe have a direct conduit to God (all 14), accept a challenge to debate the man Christopher in a public venue?

I'm personally not a fan of public debates. They quickly become a contest over who can argue the best rather than who is right. I do generally enjoy respectful dialog and exchange, however. I don't always live up to my ideals but I try.

And like the story of Elijah-- pile that wood high!

We could have it in the Conference Center or rather the Delta Center then any who wish could participate, without cost and without standing in line or competing for tickets. ;-)


I don't see it attracting that many folks. Nemelka isn't really well known and I certainly am not either. But I can't tell if you're serious anyway. Besides, a debate like that is just the sort of thing Nemelka would want. Publicity in any way he can get it (including lawsuits, etc, in my opinion). But interestingly enough, here we are online discussing things and you are defending Nemelka. Maybe you would invite him to vouch for himself instead, no?

Then all can witness for themselves who is truly "called and chosen" and who is not. (anyone have any ins to your P,S,R's?)

A champion of a debate is not automatically shown to be called of God. I don't think any of my "PSR's" would be interested in talking to a guy who recently attempted to sue one of them (and lost the suit of course).

It shouldn't take long, according to you all, for the "deceived devil or false prophet" to be exposed for who he is---should it?

That depends. There shall be many false Christs who will be able to deceive the very elect, doing signs and wonders, etc. So how long would it take?

Wouldn't that be the fairest way to let people decide for themselves -- when they have a visible choice before them?

To me the choice is already there. It involves the Book of Mormon versus Nemelka's writings and statements and acts.



If the lady you claim was "taken advantage of by Christopher" was in your presence she would slap you upside the head. She is a spit fire that no one could ever take advantage of. She's never been married because she never needed a man to lead her, tell her what she could or couldn't do, read or couldn't read, or what and who she could question or debate.

And Nemelka's words played into what she wanted to hear. I am aware of it.

(Obviously women don't have brains to think for themselves! Did you learn that from God??? Couldn't be since He's "no respecter of persons", and J.Smith never withheld the priesthood from women or blacks. It should be no small matter to you that most of the followers of Christ were WOMEN!!)

Again a common theme in Nemelka's claims, imo. No, I do not believe women "don't have brains to think for themselves." If you knew anything about me you'd know such an accusation is flatly and obviously false.



Do you really think we would make a choice so cavalierly with such severe consequences, before tasting the incredible fruits that we now enjoy and have sacrificed much to attain?

I haven't called anyone cavalier.

I may have violated the gospel by coming on to a Mormon website and posting about The Sealed Portion (thus this will be my last)...but you have violated the gospel of Jesus Christ by mocking, ridiculing, disparaging and making FALSE accusations about a book you have never read and a man you have never met.

I almost met him once. The engagement fell through, unfortunately. I regret your accusations of "mocking, ridiculing, disparaging," etc. (I feel you may be doing the same in return, despite your views of turning the other cheek, etc. None of us are perfect.)



BUT, just in case there is one humble truth seeker that will come among you, I wish to leave my witness that The Sealed Portion of the Book of Mormon--The Final Testament of Jesus Christ is not only the most astonishing book I have ever read, but it is indeed exactly what it purports to be in Ether 4, Isaiah 29 (JST), and 2 Nephi 26-27--the "greater manifestations", "the further light and knowledge God promised to send".

I prefer the Book of Mormon.

I know you're wondering how I have the audacity to say that none of you have ever read the book (despite your claims)...well here's how I can make that claim...

Because NO ONE can read it with an open heart and mind and NOT KNOW of its veracity.


I don't know that anyone can have a truly "open mind" to begin with. That remains to be shown in my opinion. we all have prejudices, beliefs, preconceived notions, hopes, expectations, etc. that play a part in how we receive things. Some ground is stony, some is fertile, etc.

Hans said...

"As to your question Hans about the OT, NT, and BoM...and that God loves conditionally.. Hmmm

I find it curious that you believe the Bible to be the "word of God only in so far as it was translated correctly"...but then y'all go to great lengths to defend every story as literal and true!"

It is a bit presumptuous to say what my interpretation of the Bible is without asking, don't you think? I personally do not believe every story is literal. But one thing is for sure: God is not a respecter of persons in the sense that all have the opportunity to accept the Gospel. He of course loves all of us equally as a parent would love each individual child. But God grants his blessings to those that respect him because he is bound by eternal law. In this sense, God is a respecter of persons. Perhaps I was not clear in my making this point.

Moreover, Jesus did not take the Gospel to the Gentiles. That point seems to not be in contention. Was he a respecter of persons then? I think you see where I am going with this.

As for the testing with Elijah and the priests of Baal, that test goes both ways. I am sure that the priests of Baal felt as much conviction as you, I, BHodges and Namelka. At the end of the day, this will come down whether someone will believe the Spirit you have received through testimony or the one that we have. One way or another, one of us has run into a false spirit because these are two contradictory points.

"I may have violated the gospel by coming on to a Mormon website and posting about The Sealed Portion (thus this will be my last)...but you have violated the gospel of Jesus Christ by mocking, ridiculing, disparaging and making FALSE accusations about a book you have never read and a man you have never met."


You have not violated any rule that I see. I appreciate you stopping by and taking part in a respectable dialogue. I also don't see where you say that I have made false or ridiculous statements about Namelka or the book. I have only said what was in the press release and commented on portions within the actual book. I dare say we have showed you respect and believe that you equally have been respectful to us.

"BTW, You won't need to supply Christopher with the questions ahead of time.

But you might need to supply your P, S, R's ahead of time, which would be fine (soak that wood well)."

I live in Phoenix and am moving to Texas in a few days so I obviously would not be able to participate in any such meeting. What's up with the cheap shot there though? Fine, Namelka wouldn't need the questions in advance. Puffery, which is fine. But why presume that a PSR would need the questions in advance? Do you not think that they have handled similar questions before? You seem to suggest an equal contest between them and Namelka and then undercut them, unless this is more puffery. Either way, to the neutral observer, you did not strengthen your argument.

Anonymous said...

Thank you both.

I just have to say...

while I was at work tonight, the Stake President and (counselor?) showed up at my door.

I don't suppose I need to tell you why.

:-) :-) :-)

PS. I'll keep you posted!

BHodges said...

What do you mean, anonymous?

Jeremy said...

Well handled Hans and BHodges. As an outside observer, I did not see any disparaging remarks from either of you. Instead, you simply stated reported facts and your preference for the BofM.

What's up with that last post by Anonymous? Made no sense to me...but apparently we are supposed to know why.

Hans said...

I'm not following you either. Were you called to the Stake Nursery Presidency?

Hans said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Jewels said...

I put my name...someone else put "anon".

BHodges said...

Right, so who is anon?

Hans said...

That's pretty strange. I suppose that is something that we can all agree on.

Anonymous said...

Callie

The BEST & TRUEST part of human existence/salvation is our self-lead ability & freedom of thought-choice-action.

Each and everyone of us has always and will always do what we think is best for ourselves- truly no one else can possibly know what is best for anyone other than themselves.

Some will choose to read the entire Sealed Portion found at thesealedportion.com others will not. Some will deride or ignore it based on the author chris nemelka as they did joe smith in his day, others will not.

Either way matters not to anyone except the individual making the choice.

Make your own choice, it is Everyones god given freedom / right to do so. Do what makes you truly happy, allow Everyone to do the same.

Jewels said...

They might think they are going to shut me up...but now that I'm "free at last"....that ain't happen'.

Doug T, who started this thread...you've been "strangely" silent...are you the "tale bearer"?

Anonymous said...

Hi friends,

It should sensibly logical to all common individuals that they are absolutely capable of "Reviewing" the Sealed Portion The Final Testatment of Jesus Christ all by themselves if they desire to do so, without the input of FAIR or Wiki which are not always wholly fair or correct.

Anyone can determine for themselves if a book or work is valid not.

People make decisions every single day regarding every aspect of their lives and society without the help of priesthoods/crafts or church HQ-tantamount to and in essence personal revelation.

I must disagree that people's personal revelation which leads to choice and action should be subject to men with clerical titles.

Now if a person wants to go along with what their religious authorities dictate it speaks to preference and choice.

The Sealed Portion was translated and revealed to bring truth for those who are looking for it-pure and simple.

The LDS church or any other for that matter doesn't have to agree or like it.

Hans said...

What's up with the persecution complex here. No one has been disrespectful or tried to shut anyone up here. Everyone can decide for themselves about TSP However, no one has responded to the Hiram Page experience. Sometimes clerical means are the way the Lord regulates his revelations.

callie said...

If Han's comment on persecution refers to Jewels comment, I understood him/her to be describing a personal experience nothing more.

Seems to me Jewels is the the 2nd type Doug spoke of in his original post; keeping the basics and yet serioius enough to step beyond and learn the real truth and what he / she may be saying is he has found peace, happiness and a sense of his eternalness in this mortal life.

Maybe for Jewels further reading of Hiram Pages, other bible translations, Quran, Woodruff, church publications etc etc etc is of no use. Go Jewels!, do what makes you happy and others will do what makes them happy.

Hans said...

By all means do what makes you happy and follow the spirit where it leads you. We'll all find out eventually on what is right but I caution about relative truth and the use of the Lord's oracles. We are encouraged to push for more on our own, but their is an divinely approved method for this.

Rose said...

Relative Truth is just that related to the individual offering his or her pe4rception of truth. One persons truth can easily be another persons lie.

Forums such at these are replete with relative truth and never able to convince others of their veracity.

Real Truth which is things as they always have been, as they are now and as they always will be-is the only relative truth that matters.

NO religion or cleric in the entirety of human existence has brought and end to all human misery; hunger, poverty, war, homelessness,indigence, disease of body or spirit, prejudice, hatred etc etc etc.

Only one taught total human equality during his lifetime in the simple phrase love others as yourself or do unto others as your would have them do unto you.

We know what happened when clerics got of hold of him.

Until All humans can live the highest law-the golden law no amount of relative truth offered up by oracles, appointed or anointed will bring heavenly inspired happiness to our world family as a whole.

Religion has never fixed anything it never will.

http://wwunited.org could.

Hans said...

Rose,

I agree with some of your sentiment about religious history but also would point to such examples of 4th Nephi and Moses 7 were the people, by approaching Zion, have peace in the land. That is what we are/should be striving for.

"NO religion or cleric in the entirety of human existence has brought and end to all human misery; hunger, poverty, war, homelessness,indigence, disease of body or spirit, prejudice, hatred etc etc etc."

Are most of things a product of the Fall? While some things are man made, disease, unhappiness, sickness are all effects of the Fall which we are purposely supposed to overcome. I am, of course, making the basic assumption that you are LDS and agree on foundational doctrine like this.

Jeremy said...

I doubt Rose is LDS since she states: "Religion has never fixed anything it never will."

I do agree with Rose, however, to the extent that organized religion cannot save an individual. Salvation, and even exaltation, is a personal and family affair. On the other hand, our Heavenly Father has lovingly provided a source where we may obtain the essential ordinances required to seal our salvation and exaltation, or as Peter puts it, to have "our calling and election made sure" (2 Pet. 1). These ordinances are found today in an organized religion, i.e., the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, where God has placed his oracles and his priesthood power.

Mel said...

If "in God is neither variableness nor shadow of changing"...and he chose to restore his gospel in the latter days (the first time) by choosing a young kid, without title, authority or priesthoods and was no oracle, why would He change His tactics for translating the rest of the gold plates?

If He is a God of truth that never changes, would he?

What IF it is the real deal?

The point I think Rose is making of authenticity in leaders is whether or not they teach and example Matthew 25:31-46, which was Christ's overarching mission, "when I was hungry you gave me meat, when I was thirsty you gave me drink, when I was a stranger, you took me in..."

If you sign and send on those email forwards to keep illegal aliens from social security benefits, or wish to deport them, or support building big walls to keep them out, or wars (even taking sides) then you should know that you are not a "sheep on the right hand of God".

If your leader's focus is on building malls and temples when His children sleep without a roof and without benefit of one meal a day and YOU were one of those without, would you follow the leader that gave you bread or the one who gave you a stone?

And which of those two examples of leaders do you think God would call to do His work?

BHodges said...

If "in God is neither variableness nor shadow of changing"...and he chose to restore his gospel in the latter days (the first time) by choosing a young kid, without title, authority or priesthoods and was no oracle, why would He change His tactics for translating the rest of the gold plates?

For one thing, that young man received priesthood authority and was promised it would not need restoring again.

If He is a God of truth that never changes, would he?

Whether or not God "changes" and in what way is up for philosophical and theological debate.

What IF it is the real deal?

What if it isn't?



If you sign and send on those email forwards to keep illegal aliens from social security benefits, or wish to deport them, or support building big walls to keep them out, or wars (even taking sides) then you should know that you are not a "sheep on the right hand of God".

Recently members of the Quorum of the Seventy were appointed to speak to the Utah legislature regarding relaxing immigration issues as well as assistance to immigrants, etc.

If your leader's focus is on building malls and temples when His children sleep without a roof and without benefit of one meal a day and YOU were one of those without, would you follow the leader that gave you bread or the one who gave you a stone?

In the beginning of this post you mention Joseph Smith as a prophet. He believed in assisting the poor, yes. He also built temples, hotels, a failed bank, and other commercial enterprises.
His work?

Hans said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Hans said...

I think that this is the most comments we've had for a post so far.

BHodges said...

It's never on the ones you think deserve a lot of comments, eh?

Hans said...

You are definitely right. This one was dead in the water until a Namelka supporter found it and spread it around. It's good, though, I think they shoudl have a chance to say their point.

Hans said...

Mel, you seem to imply that the Church only spends money on malls and temples. Besides BHodges' points on Joseph Smith's commercial dealings as well as temples (which by my count were much more expensive relative to his time than temples now), was it not Jehovah who commanded David and Solomon to build a temple that was magnificent with gold and jewels? Were you aware that Jehovah is the same person that you quoted in Matthew 25?

Your comments are disingenuous because you somehow imply that church money is not used for the poor, the orphaned, the hungry, the homeless. I can only speak from personal experience on figures because while a missionary in Bulgaria it was my responsibility to find a good charity/orphanage for which to spend part of a seven figure sum that was allotted to our mission.

Or perhaps I should refer to the weekends this past summer when Jeremy and other members from Houston went to Galveston on their weekends to help people clean up after the hurricane? But I suppose it is a better point to only focus on one thing that seemingly contradicts what the verse you supply reads while ignoring the 800pound gorilla in the room, which is that millions of dollars and human hours go into charity and helping the less fortunate.

For those supporting TSP by claiming that Namelka can work outside of ecclesiastical lines, why have you not addressed the Hiram Page experience? The Lord clearly stated that while all members are entitled to individual revelation, ultimately the Lord's anointed has the priesthood right to receive it at an institutional level. Otherwise, everyone would be confused about who has the authority to interpret revelation (I would call Namelka a case in point).

Mel said...

Did you not receive a copy of B.K. Packer's words from a recent testimony meeting, someone took shorthand notes of,
basically saying catastrophic times are coming, but don't come to the church for help, but do keep paying your tithing.

If we had any idea how much money the church took in daily or annually then we would have a clearer picture of what proportion actually goes to fulfill the words of Christ to care for the poor.

Curious as to why none of you expect an annual or biannual reporting of their income and expenditures?

Yes, I know Jehovah is the Christ. Do you take the Bible to be the literal words of God? I think you said, if I read the posts correctly, that you don't, but then you justify and espouse many things from it.

As long as one does, I doubt one will ever come to a knowledge of the true nature and character of God, one that does not, as one poster here said, "violate his own commandments".

And No, I do not believe that God told Soloman or David to build an opulent temple with the finest materials. That is not how my God works.

My God would build a "temple" for each and every one of his children and make sure that each one is stocked with enough food to supply its inhabitants 3 square and nutricious meals a day, clothing to cover their nakedness and medicine when needed to heal their wounds, etc..

It is becoming very apparent to me that we worship two very, very different "Gods".

Thanks for allowing me to stop by and leave a few thoughts.

I wish you all the very best in your [hopefully] continued search for truth.

Mel said...

As for Hiram Page, I only had time to briefly look at his info on the internet so I cannot comment on it. But I do not history was changed even in your D & C(just like the Bible history).

If you'd go to the original Book of Commandments you would find that JSmith was told not to start a church.

But again, JSmith was not in any "ecclesiatical lines" (sorry about sp)

Have you googled David Whitmer's "Address to Believers".

I think you'll find it rather interesting.

Rose said...

Born and raised LDS, have held just about every calling a woman can hold in the church from prmary to seminary. I also believe the Sealed Poriton of the Book of Mormon The Final Testament of Jesus Christ has been translated see thesealedportion.com I don't give a rip about Nemelka, what he's done, the life experiences he's had or the fact that he doesn't do white shirts, coloful ties or dark suits. I can dismiss whatever qualities people may point out that in their opinion disqualify him to accomplish the translation in the same way I can dismiss Joe Smith's many potenital disqualifications. For the simple reason that the message will always be More Important than the messenger.

How will a reasonable individual ever know if a message is true or not without looking at it. How can a person know if a fruit is good without tasting it or be healed from the serpents sting without looking at the staff. I've enjoyed all the esoteric or essenital ordinances the church offers and now I get to have my cake and eat it too!

I have the enitre Book of Mormon including a retranslation of the 116 pages that were lost-the Book of Lehi- wow was that a page turner! A complete explanation of the Book of Revelation and complete explanation of the whole symbolic temple endowment. It's the best of both worlds. Most of these books are available to read free online or to purchase a personal copy.

BHodges said...

I hesitate to ask this question, I really shouldn't, but I have only met female followers of Nemelka. I state this as an observation. Are there many guys who follow his sealed portion?

Rose said...

Dear Hodges,

There are as many if not more men than women, as far as I have seen at the occasional symposium and anyone is able to visit thesealedportion.com and click on the personal stories of some of those men and women and see themselves. From what I have read there I'd hardly say they were apostates. If merely not attending meetings makes a person apostate then the group of individuals who approached Alma when they were kicked out of their synogogue for their coarse apparel must qualify as apostates for believing Alma's words that "it is well that ye are cast out of your synogogues that ye may be humble and that ye may learn wisdom."

BHodges said...

Ah, that does provide some examples, thanks. I've simply only seen women responding to internet discussions like this so I was curious.

(I'm not sure why you turned my question into an accusation directed presumably at me, I was just asking a question.)

Rose said...

For the sake of clarity my comments regarding apostates or apostasy weren't directed at Hodges in particular but for others bringing the subject up in their post content.

Rose said...

It could sensibly be that the men don't have time to post a such forums as these because they are simply busy at work. Who can say. As for me, I have some leisure time for this activity at my disposal.

Again Hodges no personal accusation was intended.

Hans said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
BHodges said...

I'm pretty sure the "Joe Smith" thing was meant as a parallel to people making fun of or disrespecting Nemelka, not that she would actually call the prophet "Joe Smith" herself. She was essentially saying "as people disbelieved Joseph Smith, so they disbelieve Nemelka."

This, however, is a fallacy; opposition is not evidence of the truthfulness of the opposed.

Hans said...

In other words, you mean me. Again, the persecution is strong with you young padawan, but you will soon get over it.

The Book of Mormon phrases you quote cut both ways. Odd that you say you are/were a life long member and still believe in the BoM but you refer to Joseph Smith as Joe Smith. Not that there's anything wrong with that per se, but it's not something that people affiliated with the LDS religious tradition would say. It's usually how his enemies termed him.

Mel, D&C 28 which now comprises the revelation concerning Hiram Page was in the original Book of Commandments. While it is feasible that it could have been changed from 1830 when it was given, to a few years later when published in Kirtland, that may be going out on a limb. Additionally, you say that Joseph wasn't commanded to restore a church in the BoC but D&C 20 (now) was included as D&C 24 (sorry if I am off, but I think it is 24). I would call that pretty explicit.

Hans said...

Sorry, that will look out of place but I accidentally deleted my comment and had to place it back. It will make the last few comments a little out of place.

I agree, opposition does not a true religion make. Just as (financial) prosperity is not a true indication of righteousness.

Rose said...

I don't have a persecution complex hope your not feeling that way this forum is merely an exchange of opinion- simply an exchange.

Relatives of mine who have dined with Thomas Monson call him Tommy and they're just as upstanding as I am.

I don't expect that any of my words will change anyones mind- they shouldn't- I'll use mine, other should use theirs.

Opposition is not intended to make religion true neither does ease. Opposition can only give an individual the experience of contrast. The reason for us all being here on this mortal earth in the first place.

Hodges last comment of financial success not being a true indication of righteousness is right on the 666/$$$! LOL That's great sensible use of your noggin. I'm having fun. :-)

BHodges said...

Just to be clear I didn't say the bit about the money, that was Hans.

Hans said...

Yes, that was my part. It was used as a contrast to the part about opposition not making something true. I say it because there are surely people who really do think they are right because of prosperity.

Again, I didn't refer to the Joe Smith part because I think it is wrong per se, it was just odd the way I read it. If BHodges is right, then I misunderstood the context it was being used in.

Of course this is a place for free exchange of ideas, but you seem to refer to me considering you an apostate.

Rose said...

Hans said...
Sorry, that will look out of place but I accidentally deleted my comment and had to place it back. It will make the last few comments a little out of place.

I agree, opposition does not a true religion make. Just as (financial) prosperity is not a true indication of righteousness.

January 15, 2009 3:33 PM


Rose: I simply took the words from the post above at 3:33 PM whether its Hans or Hodges make no difference to me. I simply agree that financial 666 prosperity is no true inidcation of righteousness.

Rose said...

Hans said...
Sorry, that will look out of place but I accidentally deleted my comment and had to place it back. It will make the last few comments a little out of place.

I agree, opposition does not a true religion make. Just as (financial) prosperity is not a true indication of righteousness.

January 15, 2009 3:33 PM


Rose: I simply took the words from the post above at 3:33 PM whether its Hans or Hodges make no difference to me. I simply agree that financial 666 prosperity is no true inidcation of righteousness.

Rose said...

I don't mind whether people think I'm apostate or upstanding, people are going to believe and validate in their own minds what they will.

Either way has no effect on my life whatsoever. I do believe in the exchange of ideas. Will all people always agree on every little detail- absolutely not. In my opinion that is the whole of the problems with this mortal world.

Not that people shouldn't have a difference of opinion but that ultimately the world family is going to have to come to some consensus of what is truly most important and I believe religions will have NO part of that general consensus.

What I believe to be most important truth humans can adhere to or regard is the golden rule. Live your life the way it makes you happy and allow all others the same.

Treat others as you would want to be treated.

There was mention of adversity being the thing we must overcome. Well the answer to world hunger, homelessness, war, poverty, disease, pride, predjudice etc etc can be overcome but not (in my opinion) by promoting religion.

The world will never be a more peaceful, happier or heavenly place until the world experiences complete equality among all its people.

Not one person here can say that religion fosters equality for ALL.

Scripture says God is "no respecter of persons" but religions certainly are.

Hans said...

"Not one person here can say that religion fosters equality for ALL."

That depends on your definition of equality is. The second question is whether that coincides with God's definition.

BHodges said...

It also depends on a definition of "religion." I believe Rose et al. follow a particular religion, but I doubt they hold that same standard to their own. It really is nonsense to demand "equality to all," what about pedophiles and car thieves? Some claim that such things make them happy. In order to extend equality, perhaps we would allow them their right, live and let live, etc.

Rose said...

So long as individual are blinded by their perception of what is right or correct in their opinion and must hold others to that same opinion then the mortal world will never know true equalitly.

We are all different which makes us all the same.

Unless someone here is a pedophile then they cannot speak for a pedophile, unless they are homosexual they cannot speak for homosexuals, if you are not a car thief you cannot speak for a car thief, unless you are GOD you cannot speak for that paticular Advanced Human Being etc etc etc.

Equality is Equality.

If some here don't support the equality of ALL Human Lives then nothing more can be said.

Superiority has always been and will always be nothing more than a persons mind.

Anonymous said...
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Julie L. Taggart said...

Letting you know that you are all invited to come to a symposium sponsored by Christopher, translator of the Sealed Portion of the Book of Mormon, Saturday March 19th at the SLC Main Library (210 E. 400 S) in the main theater from 10 AM to 4 PM. for more info visit: marvelouwworkandawonder.com

Hopefully you'll take NO ONE's word for it, but see for yourself whether this man is who he claims to be or not. Below is my response to the City Weekly's article entitled "Sealed Fate":

Didn't Do Your Homework
By City Weekly Readers

Praise to City Weekly for its willingness to inform the world of The Sealed Portion when The Salt Lake Tribune and the Deseret News wouldn’t touch it with a 10-foot pole [“Sealed Fate,” Jan. 27, City Weekly]. But what a disservice Stephen Dark does to readers, the LDS community and the world for mocking the man who holds the only solution that could end the worldwide economic crisis.

In preparation for the story, Dark was invited to peruse Human Reality: Who We Are and Why We Exist or find a flaw, if he could, in the comprehensive but simple plan that claims to eliminate poverty and inequality around the world, virtually overnight and in perpetuity. Either one of those pursuits, despite his atheistic and anti-religious views or personal contempt for the translator, had he kept an open mind, would have convinced him of the authenticity of his appointment and the realization that this is not another religion. It sets people free from the need to join with, follow, worship or trust anyone but oneself. Tragically, the assignment to do his homework and present it with objectivity wasn’t deemed significant enough for what I believe will one day prove to be the story of the century—especially in a state filled with people too intimidated to read anything but Deseret Book’s “priestcraft” wares.

However, if you wanted more relevant sensationalism, you might have compared Christopher Nemelka’s works, all transparent and free, to the LDS Church that refuses to disclose its income to its own members (who can “rob the storehouse” except those who hold the keys to the coffers?). Or asked why engraved images are erected atop all its temples in violation of the Ten Commandments? Or why it sets up businesses (temples) around the world, then sends in its sales force (missionaries) to convince people they can’t have their Family Forever unless they pay 10 percent of their gross income to gain entrance? Why does the church build a multibillion-dollar mall but give a pittance of its gross income to help the poor and needy? As if that weren’t enough, the church continually hails its good deeds abroad despite President Thomas Monson’s own talk “See Thou Tell No One” on giving anonymously (Ensign June 1992). LDS leaders, with the utilization of their contacts, resources and influence around the world, could partner with the Worldwide United Foundation to implement the plan that would restore peace (and prosperity) on earth, good will toward (all) men—but for their hubris. Except that they “become as little children” with the humility and accept that this Divine Plan could not, did not and never will come through them, the world will continue to know poverty, destitution, starvation, war, crime and terrorism.

Nemelka will hold a free symposium on March 19, 10 a.m.-4 p.m., at the Salt Lake City Public Library auditorium, for those who dare to think for themselves—all are invited to attend. Who can answer any question or solve any mystery with reality and common sense to the understanding of a little child? Pile that wood high, then douse it in water and prove you now herewith ye cowards, who dare not show your face, even en masse with all the brethren and your experts by your side, before this one man, who alone can withstand the force of a hurricane, the fierceness of many lions, or the hottest furnace, yet remain unscathed?

Julie L. Taggart

Paulo Alfrino [Alf] said...

I am reading the books Nemelka wrote/translated. I haven't finished yet but one thing I'm sure: many important principles that Joseph taught (like consecration) were left behind by the members and are still left aside by the leaders. No poor among the members? Yes, there are, and still the rich in the church keep their money just inside their families. I saw more church's money spent in fun than in helping the needy. After all, the brother of Jared, that had the most amazing experience in the BoM says nothing about religion or baptism or temples. Not one word about it in the entire book of Ether (and that people was taught from the high). Reading D&C one can clearly see the difference between JS claims and the revelations from the brethren (that were 'received' when he was alive but not present and were published only after his death) and I can use as example the section at the end of D&C that explains the 'political position' of the church that one can compare with Joseph's presidential campaign. I am a truth seeker, that's how I started reading the BoM and also TSP. If you agree that Brigham was a prophet, keep in mind that he said that one must seek the truth wherever it is, even if it's in hell. I have to say that through intense study I found many things 'hidden' in the scriptures (that are not taught at the church) that are clearly explained in Nemelka's books and I found there many other precious things.

The main lesson for me is that there is ONE law by which we all be judged: do unto others what we want to be done unto ourselves (this is THE law and the prophets). Everything else is blah blah blah. This is the main lesson. We all have different points of view at this moment but that lesson is undeniable.

I hope we all find each day more truth in any path we decide to walk in and that it can lead us to happiness, because that's the purpose of our creation.

Anonymous said...

3 Nephi 11:28
And according as I have commanded you thus shall ye baptize.
And there shall be no disputations among you, as there have
hitherto been; neither shall there be disputations among you
concerning the points of my doctrine, as there have hitherto
been.

3 Nephi 11:29
For verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of
contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father
of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend
with anger, one with another.

The sealed portion has not been translated, nor will it be for a long time. Sorry you guys...The Lord told The Brother of Jared that it would NOT come fourth, until the Gentiles repented of their iniquity. And as of today, the Gentiles are far from repentant, but increase in wickedness and antichrist like beliefs, and behavior.
Also, the plates were taken from the earth, and the 116 pages that were lost, were destroyed by the Lord. I guess what I'm trying to say is...it would be pretty hard to translate from something that isn't here.

Harry Dschaak said...

Hey fellas, I see that this blog is quite old, but has a couple rather recent posts, so I hope I can add some insight, along with my own comment, and not be irrelevant to the discussion.

I have read through this very long thread and have found it to be quite informative, but not really persuasive in any direction. I can safely say that Julie Taggart and Ida Smith were/are pretty sure that they have found all the answers to everyone's questions and that Nemelka is someone who is a legitimate replacement/extension for Christ. They both want to testify that they have found the truth and the truth has set them free, but neither of them is any freer than they were when they were Mormons. If they still follow Nemelka and his storyteling, then they are just as captivated by the legend of Joseph Smith as they have ever been. As for Nemelka, he is a first rate con-artist who has done very little to change the plight of humanity. He's produced millions of words preaching what he terms as "real truth" (as if there was a different kind of truth) but his words are his own truth, and they are forever subject to change. He is not intelligent enough to know that his works and his claims steal a person's free agency, and he doesn't comprehend that it is his lies and his false pretenses that keeps his victims bound down to him. He refuses to let them go, for he feeds on the praise and attention that they give him. He has (in my own opinion) been very consistent in his desire to destroy everything sacred to others, as well as proving time and again that he alone is God's true messenger.

Nemelka is a coward in every sense of the word. He is a bold liar, and by that I mean he can look you in the eye and lie the perfect lie. He brags of bearing a perpetual smile, but this is not because he loves anyone, or because he is Christ-like, or because he has a humble spirit, it's because he thinks he's smarter than everyone. (arrogant)

Myself, I can tell you how he was able to write his Sealed Portion, and get it to be so convincing to some. I can also tell you his whole life story from the beginning until now. There isn't much in his autobiography(s) that is true, and that's a fact.

As for Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon, I am not able to accept either as anything holy or worth considering. I have studied them both over the years and have concluded that there is too much controversy surrounding them to hold them dear. In fine, I believe Joseph Smith lied about his experience in the grove, and about having any gold plates, or having any visitations from anyone. When I picture Joseph fabricating his stories, (much the same way Nemelka does) I can laugh at the silliness of their imaginary friends and their imaginary Kingdoms of heaven, and their Highly Advanced/resurrected mentors and see right through their scams.

Watching Julie present her facts about the Sealed Portion and Nemelka's divine calling as if it were even remotely possible is not fun to watch, especially since I know where it came from and how it became a quasi-plausible sequel to Joseph's book. (At least one that could be declared for real by someone sincere)

By the same token, I am not relieved to see sincere mormons holding to their beliefs in their prophets so tightly either.

There is quite alot of reality to behold when one stops living as if this life is only a worthiness test, and that there is a life after this one that matters more than this one.

There is also a lot more peace.

Just sayin'...